The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius

    As the date for selecting a running mate for the presumptive nominees approaches there have been many names thrown into contention for both candidates. While there have been many qualified names offered up for the Democrats and many people have their own personal favorites, I am no exception. According to conventional political wisdom the main purpose of the vice-presidential nominee is to bring unity to the party if there has been a fractious primary, or to bring geographical strength to an area where a candidate may be weak, or for gender, generational or ideological concerns. I believe that one of the top and best choices for Senator Obama's selection as a running mate would be Governor Kathleen Sibelius of Kansas.

    Now, I have to admit that I have a personal bias towards Governor Sibelius and the State of Kansas. I attended the University of Kansas and have been a major Jayhawks fan for decades. All of that aside though, I would like to discuss my case for having Governor Sibelius on the ticket for the Democrats. I have been a big fan of Governor Sibelius since she was elected Insurance Commissioner, while I live in the neighboring state of Missouri I have been keeping an eye on Kathleen Sibelius. Her star has risen swiftly in state and national political circles and she had been rumored for other positions previously.

    Most of you I am sure are familiar with her biography, but for those who are not let me give you some of the highlights. She was born in Cincinnati, OH and attended Catholic schools throughout her life. She moved to Kansas in 1974 and attended the University of Kansas where she earned a Master of Public Administration degree. Her father was a Governor of Ohio and her husband is a federal magistrate judge. She was born and raised a Catholic and I believe is still a practicing Catholic. While I personally have issues with the Catholic Church, I do not hold them against the Governor.

    My first point for Governor Sibelius is the fact that she is a Governor. Unlike legislators the public views Governors as actually doing work and accomplishing things. Let's face it a legislator can go through their whole career and never produce any meaningful legislation. Governors on the other hand govern, they submit budgets and handle crisis'. There is a reason that many of our past Presidents were ex-governors. The two political Parties have done such a good job of tearing down each other in the Congress that the public's perception of legislators is just above child molesters.

    Next is the fact that she is a blue Governor of a traditionally red and Midwestern state. For the record though Kansas is not a traditionally red state. Let's remember that Kansas was a free state and fought for the abolition of slavery. Kansas also offered free homesteads to freed slaves. Kansas has had it's issues with race, but they have always been willing to give people a chance. As a rural farm state they have always believed in the value of hard work and common sense. While they may be too conservative for a lot of folks taste they have a history of live and let live and Kathleen Sibelius typifies that attitude. As Governor she has refused to sign abortion legislation that would criminalize, eliminate, or reduce access to abortions, even though she is personally pro-life.

    Another of her strong characteristics is that she is a fighter and will stand up for what she believes in. This was demonstrated when she stood up to the energy companies that wanted to build coal fired power plants in the state. Many thought this would reduce her popularity due to the smear campaigns being employed by the energy companies, in actually she became more popular. Governor Sibelius has continued to gain popularity in the state and nationally for her stands on the issues of capital punishment, the environment, and a rational gun policy. Governor Sibelius would be a hearty foe for any Republican VP candidate during the debates and on the campaign trail. She is tough and effective yet she has not lost her capacity to be a woman.

    My final point but by all means not the final reason for Governor Sibelius to be chosen is the fact that she is a woman. I believe that having Governor Sibelius on the ticket will not only shore up the rural white and Midwestern voters, but would also allow the Democrats to break two historical barriers in the same election. Many of the women in this country wanted to see Hillary elected not only because of her being a great candidate, but also due to her historical candidacy. Having Governor Sibelius on the ticket would go a long way to motivate and excite those many Hillary supporters who wanted to also be a part of a history making campaign. It would also demonstrate how much the Democrats respect the significant contributions women  have made not only to the Party, but also the nation.

    Will Governor Sibelius get the nod for VP? I doubt it the odds on favorites coming out of the Obama camp are white males with strong national defense backgrounds to short-circuit the un-patriotic and inexperience arguments that the "swift boaters" are going to present in the fall. The Republican memes have already begun with the same campaign rhetoric they have used the last three election cycles (flip-flopping and weak on defense), I guess if it keeps working. I for one would applaud the selection of Governor Sibelius because she exemplifies many fine qualities that our country is sorely in need of.

You don't have to be anti-man to be pro-woman.  ~Jane Galvin Lewis

The Disputed Truth



Display:


Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

Thanks for making the case for my governor. I like her a lot and won't be heartbroken if she's not selected, because she's been good for Kansas, and good for the Democratic image in Kansas.
A small point, though, her name is spelled Sebelius
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:42:37 AM EST

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (2.00 / 3)

Sorry dude. Sebelius doesn't replace Hillary. Your diary somewhat insinuated that, and I don't appreciate it.

I think that this point, because of public perception, Obama can't pick a female VP unless it's Hillary. The same backlash would have followed if Hillary won the nomination and selected Harold Ford Jr as her VP.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:43:53 AM EST

I have to agree with you (2.00 / 1)

Picking a woman other than Hillary would backfire, in my opinion.

I still think Wes Clark would have been a great choice for Obama.

If he won't pick Hillary, he should unite the party by choosing a Clinton supporter.


See if Saxby Chambliss is helping you.
by desmoinesdem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clark has become a great choice... again. (none / 0)

by his comments about McCain.

;-)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:10:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have to agree with you (none / 0)

I agree, Wes is my number one choice, Senator Clinton, number two.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:17:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think the public cares (2.00 / 1)

The media would certainly make it out to be a big deal, but then Clinton would come on and say that Sebelius is a great choice, and that would be the end of it.

The entire suggestion that no other woman besides Clinton is qualified is ridiculously sexist, and is against everything Clinton stands for.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:49:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think the public cares (2.00 / 1)

I don't think they are saying no other woman is qualified.

What is being said is that choosing another woman -- as if just choosing any woman would placate Hillary supporters -- is what would make those supporters angry.

So, I think you're reading something into this that isn't there.


by cuppajoe on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:15:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Seems kinda self-centered (none / 0)

I don't think placating Clinton's supporters at this point is on the agenda.  The half of a tenth of a percent of "Clinton supporters" out there who are so myopic to think that the VP choice has anything to do with Clinton being a woman and who will go McCain or stay home if not appeased... them we can afford to lose.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Choosing a token candidate (none / 0)

would be collosally stupid.

Clark or Sebelius, please!


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think the public cares (none / 0)

I agree. It certainly could and likely would be potrayed as a clumsy attemp to placate Clinton backers. I just don't think Sebelius is ready for prime time yet, her decent track record in Kansas notwithstanding


by Mayor McCheese on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think the public cares (none / 0)

correct.

besides, 18M voted for HRC, about 7x the amount of people who lives in kansas.


by darwinism on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you suggesting that Sebelius (none / 0)

isn't as qualified as Tim Kaine or Mark Warner or Evan Bayh?


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you suggesting that Sebelius (none / 0)

IMHO, she is not as qualified as Bayh. He's got experience at the both the state and federal level and more total years in office.


by Mayor McCheese on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She also isn't a reconstructed (none / 0)

Neocon like Bayh is either.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 04:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

In all honesty, I think the people who would be pissed about a non-Hillary, female VP nominee are likely highly correlated with that same group of people who's be pissed with ANY non-Hillary VP nominee, regardless of sex.  

Now, if they stir up trouble to the extent that it causes serious problems for Obama with women voters, then it's not worth it.  Of course, they'll do that anyway, if he doesn't pick Hillary.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

I don't understand that logic.

Is it your woman or no woman?  Gov Sibelius is a logical choice and its not because she is a woman.  She is a popular Dem in the Reddest of Red states, she is good on her feet and has a command of the issues.  

The drawbacks are with her out of Kansas, it's probably another Repub as Gov. and I am not sure that her on the ticket would help turn this state blue.    


by gil44 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:11:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The best reason for Sebelius (none / 0)

is that she can keep cool in a crisis.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:10:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He could pick Sebelius (none / 0)

she's solid, and a good choice.

Yes, a few Clinton supporters would go hysterical. But, really, if Clinton's out of the running, do you want to get somewhere or not??


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (1.00 / 1)

Some of Hillary's former supporters need to take the big chip off their shoulders.

It's a simple fact that Sebelius brings everything Clinton does without the record of collaboration with the worst of Bush's agenda (which would drag Obama down).

And there wouldn't be any backlash except from the same small gaggle of bitter dead-enders who worship Hillary more than what they say she stands for.


by Beren on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (2.00 / 2)

I was unaware I had a chip on my shoulder.  Thanks for letting me know!

Its a simple fact that Sebelius does NOT come close to bringing what Clinton could bring.  

Sebelius did not have 18 million primary voters just vote for her.  An average of 5.4 million of those Clinton voters say they will not vote for Obama.  FYI, Kerry lost in 2004 by about 4 million votes.

Sebelius did not raise $250 million dollars.  Sebelius is not have a devoted following that is sitting on another $100-150 million dollars.

Sebelius does not have a last name that is Clinton (which, in terms of economic American political capital - is pure gold).


by MKyleM on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (2.00 / 2)

Good point.  I agree completely!

I personally think it would be absolutely foolish of Obama to not pick Hillary.

I can't imagine there will be more than a few people who would not vote for Obama if she is on the ticket.  

No other VP choice, Dem or GOP, brings to their ticket any kind of energized following as Clinton's.  Her's is massive and rich!


by MKyleM on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

I don't think the diary insinuated that Sebelius would replace Hillary. Let's say that John Edwards was second after Obama, would his supporters say that by picking another white male he would be insulting Edwards?

As a feminist woman, I'd love to see Sebelius on the ticket. I think most women would feel the same way, even former Clinton supporters. Obama is going to win in November and his VP will be next in line for the presidency. Why have that be another white male?

I think Obama should pick the best person for the job. I also think it is blind of HRC supporters not to recognize the unusual circumstances that make it difficult for her to be VP. Bill, Bill, Bill. Plus, she comes with a lot of high negatives and campaign debt.


by Lolis on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obviously you are member of ABC crowd! (2.00 / 1)


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:57:59 AM EST

Is this snark? (none / 0)

question of utmost seriousness.


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obviously you are member of ABC crowd! (none / 0)

It's a shame that people can't discuss Sibelius without Clinton being brought into the conversation, because women are all the same.

Would you have made that joke if the diarist had suggested Clark?  Of course not.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The "No woman but Clinton!" hue and cry (none / 0)

is somewhat baffling.


by Beren on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:43:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's her turn. (none / 0)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obviously you are member of ABC crowd! (none / 0)

Having a discussion of any putative would be almost necessarily draws in Clinton, like it or not.


by Mayor McCheese on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:04:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obviously you are member of ABC crowd! (none / 0)

I think you know what I meant - that when Kathleen Sebelius is suggested, the primary gets refought.  That doesn't happen with, say, Edwards, even though arguably that would be a better place to compare votes, donor lists, etc. - all the usual pro-Clinton and anti-Sebelius arguments that get tossed around.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obviously you are member of ABC crowd! (none / 0)

I totally see what you are saying.

However, I can't see it another way: no one, man or woman, compares to Hillary Clinton in terms of votes and money.  No one!  Period!


by MKyleM on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 04:29:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obviously you are member of ABC crowd! (none / 0)

That's... defensible.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what i don't get (2.00 / 4)

is how so many people can find red-state dems acceptable but they hated HRC's politics.

These red state dems are very moderate to conserative in many ways.  They have totally given up on many "traditional" dem issues in order to compete in states like kansas, tennessee, montana, oklahoma, etc.

I'm fine with this as matter of understanding politics and being a big tent party, but I'm just wondering how it is that these dems get a pass to be on a dem ticket?

Won't matter to me either way who obama picks.


by yellowdem1129 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:32:16 AM EST

Re: what i don't get (none / 0)

If we're to grow the party we're going to need to appeal more to the Mountain West and surrounding states.

Speaking strategically, gun-control was a lose-lose issue for us anyway.  That doesn't mean we drop it entirely, but it does mean we'd be wise to realize that we've gone about as far as we're ever going to go with Federal regulations.  Federalism works pretty well on this issue.

Having a Red State governor on the ticket, like Schweitzer for example, would send a message loud and clear that we aren't just the party of the coasts.

A Midwest or Mountain West pragmatist would be an excellent choice, both for this year and the future more generally.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:45:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So instead of moving (none / 0)

the so called center to the left, after years and years of conservatives moving it to the right, you suggest we appease conservatives and try to appeal more to them than to women who have supported this party with action and money for decades.

WOW! More insults to left minded women who know the difference between a conservative like Sellibus and a true left of center, liberal like Senator Clinton.

This is not where many of us want to go.  I live in the mountain west and the paternalism here is overwhelming.  Sellibus is decent but she is no liberal.  No thanks.

Enjoy your the pandering of your progressive movement.....this is certainly not what real liberals envision as CHANGE.


by Jjc2008 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, liberal change is pulling that (none / 0)

confederate flag down off of the courthouse.

Progressive change is something different.

I'm basing this on the Pew Study, and categorizing Progressive Values as more generally encompassing of Democratic Values.

Fuck the liberals, and all the lost time too. We need enforcement of regulation, right now. We need a functional civil service. (this rant could be a diary, but I'm pretty sure someone would call troll. it would be FUN to write, though.)

I don't ask for much, and certainly not purity.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So instead of moving (none / 0)

In what way is Sebelius conservative??? She has fought harder to protect a woman's right to choose than anyone. She has fought for schools and the environment and stood up to large corporations.

She is a fighter and a winner.


by Lolis on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what i don't get (none / 0)

Firstly, I didn't see this diarist suggest that he/she doesn't like Clinton's politics, so my response is in hypothetical terms about hypothetical people like yours was. Maybe some people didn't like their perception of Clinton's political style as opposed to her policy platform but like Sebelius' style/public persona?


by glopster on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I liked Clinton's style (2.00 / 1)

didn't like the compromises she was making to get to be President, and especially didn't like the skullduggery during the Presidential Campaign (and by that, I specifically do not refer to any exchanges between Clinton and other Presidential Candidates. That was fair. The other stuff wasn't)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what i don't get (none / 0)

There is a difference between having a moderate/centrist President and a moderate/centrist Vice President.  That's why many people supported Obama over Hillary.  As far as Sibelius vs. Hillary for VP, they would both be good choices for different reasons.  It is debatable that Hillary's two big negatives (Bill and energizing lethargic conservatives) may outweigh her positives.  I'm not sure that Sibelius' moderate/centrist negatives don't outweigh her positives as well.


by ProgressiveDL on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They want people to get along (none / 0)

They want unity. If people have to disagree (which they wish did not happen) then they want people who are not disagreeable. Sebelius is sugar and spice, knows her place, and is not confrontational.

Hillary is a pistol. Her positions are more progressive, but she's assertive about them so that makes them upset. "She ran her race like a man" they say, (only men have held this job, they don't recognize the double standard, they don't recognize it's sexist to tsk-tsk a woman for being bold and assertive and running for president.)

They are soft.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They want people to get along (none / 0)

"but she's assertive about them so that makes them upset. "She ran her race like a man"...

I disagree, what a lot of us are saying is "she was ADVISED by clowns like Mark Penn she had to run TOUGHER then any man..."

And, I think it backfired.

I think you can argue Sexism DID cost her the nomination, but some of it came from internal forces, folks inside her campaign that thought she had to "out-hawk" the hawks, to appear stronger then any man.

Off topic a bit, but I thought it warranted a response.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:56:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So David Axelrode is acceptable (2.00 / 1)

that is such baloney. What is so awesome about David Axelrode.

No she didn't have to out-hawk because she was a female, that right there is a very sexist accusation. Her home state is NEW YORK which was directly hit on 9/11. Her fellow senator, Chuck Schumer, voted the same way on the Iraq War Resolution. And she happens to have that world view - that there are bad players out there and we need to hold them in check.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't know about you, girl (1.00 / 1)

but i'd sure as hell like a genius on the ticket.

and that does NOT mean Hillary.

New York didn't fucking care about being hit. They got over it. Trust me, you walk through a city steppin' over puddles of pee, you don't need to worry about scary guys. You accept it, just like my other relatives in Israel accept the chance of death on a bus.

I don't fucking want a Hobbesian theorist anywhere near my fucking federal government every again.

Do You HEAR Me?


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So David Axelrode is acceptable (none / 0)

"What is so awesome about David Axelrode.

Actually, think there is no E on the end of his name.

But, my take is, he ran a campaign that beat a candidate in the primaries with a huge lead in money, name recognition and a head start of over 100 declared Supers.

He is on track to get Senator Obama elected president, and IMHO, by running Dean's 50 state campaign theory, he is going to drag a lot of democrats into office at the same time.

That's plenty acceptable to me.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're going in circles (none / 0)

You just didn't like Hillary. If this were about Penn, you're voting Axelrod over Mark Penn because Axelrod is running a campaign in which Obama will get more votes.

That's like voting in the General Election for the more electable candidate.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're going in circles (none / 0)

I like Hillary just fine.

She is my number two choice for VP after Wes Clark and please, run my history, and find where I have attacked Hillary.

I didn't like her tactics, and I think Obama is a better choice.

But, I would have wholeheartedly and wholethroatedly supported her had she won the nomination.

You know, if you don't have either a KOS OR a NoQuarter viewpoint, there ARE a lot of folks like me, that simply chose, and never really had to hate either candidate to make that happen.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 04:38:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This has nothing to do with Mark Penn or Axelrod (none / 0)

is all I'm saying.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So David Axelrode is acceptable (1.00 / 1)

"What is so awesome about David Axelrode (sic)"

Um, his campaign beat the campaign of the "inevitable" candidate.  Kind of awesome.


Saxby Chambliss: Asshat
by mikeinsf on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So your reason for voting Obama not Hillary (none / 0)

is that he had a campaign manager that was going to beat Hillary's campaign manager.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:15:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So your reason for voting Obama not Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Funny - ask a question, get an answer, and then pretend that you asked a different question.

By the way - and I meant to ask this above - who is the "they" that you're babbling about?


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So your reason for voting Obama not Hillary (none / 0)

You didn't ask what's good about Obama; you asked what's so great about Axelrod. I answered, and, no, I'm not voting for Obama because he has a skilled campaign manager.  Where did I say that?  

You are consistently dishonest on your posts.


Saxby Chambliss: Asshat
by mikeinsf on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:27:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why would you slam Hillary (none / 0)

by saying she's so dumb that she thought Iraq had something to do with 9/11?  Obviously you're not a New Yorker.


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she was assertive about the wrong things (1.50 / 2)

few minded when she was assertive about health care.  But then she was assertive about boneheaded ideas like the gas tax and Iran the eyes started to roll.


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually yes they did, the oBots (2.00 / 1)

said they didn't want to pay mandates because they had to make car payments, etc. Again, it would not have upset people if that statement about Iran had come from a man.

"She was assertive about the wrong things" give me a break, you just don't like her period.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually yes they did, the oBots (none / 0)

""She was assertive about the wrong things" give me a break, you just don't like her PERIOD."

Sorry but that last word gets periodically thrown around from time to time and when used in a different context is a bit offensive to some.


Elections 2008 Best reality show ever!!!
by kbal on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually you have no idea (none / 0)

What you're talking about.  Many prominent pro-Obama bloggers preferred Clinton's health-care plan.  Matthew Yglesias, Ezra Klein, and Scott Lemieux are but three examples.

"You just don't like her period"?

O RLY?  Then maybe you can explain why I wrote this diary entitled "I Like Hillary Clinton":

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/1505 /97534

Perhaps it's best for you to remain silent and be thought a fool than to comment and remove all doubt.


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How I love the reeling in of feminism (none / 0)

Some of these posts are so great.  They tout Clinton's effectiveness despite being a woman, while the rest of us (and, frankly, all of her real supporters) think of gender as being fairly irrelevant in Hillary Clinton's strength as a potential leader.

Sebelius isn't a good choice because she's a Little Miss Sunshine who won't rock the boat, will serve tea or lemonade to the big strong men, and will avert her eyes when the president looks at her, like a nice girl?  Bite me.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How I love the reeling in of feminism (none / 0)

I don't think your impression is based on reality. Sebelius has been involved in controversies for standing up to The Man. She criticized Bush Co for the lack of National Guard and equipment to deal with U.S. natural disasters. She took heat for that.

At least look at her record before you make sexist claims that she is a wuss.


by Lolis on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How I love the reeling in of feminism (none / 0)

Re-read the exchange.  You're biting the wrong head off.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks (none / 0)

Context is King, I guess.  Queen?

I suppose that context is more of a Pawn on the internet, though.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sebelius is a cowgirl (none / 0)

... nothin' out west about knowin' your place, when you might need to mount a horse and pull a few cows out of the mud -- or hold a household together in the great drought that's comin'.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:50:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's a good choice (none / 0)

I like Sebelius; I think she's my second choice, or first, considering that Gore probably won't do it.

I don't know why people are bringing up Clinton in this diary; she wasn't mentioned once.

We need to look at each VP candidate and judge them by two criteria: 1) Is he or she a deal breaker in terms of electoral support, and 2) Will he or she be compatable with the new president and be able to govern similarly if something happens to the president?  That's it.

All this wrangling about Sebelius's nomination being an insult to Clinton is, quite frankly, sexist and is, in fact, the real insult to Clinton, who has been trying to level the playing field between men and women her entire life.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:54:59 AM EST

Anyone who opposes Sebelius as VP (none / 0)

because she's a woman has no right to describe themselves as feminist.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:03:13 AM EST

If Obama were to take the courageous (2.00 / 3)

step of selecting a woman as his running mate, Hillary Clinton would be a far superior choice.


by activatedbybush on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:23:08 AM EST

Re: If Obama were to take the courageous (none / 0)

I'm not sure.  Sebelius has executive experience and is popular in a Red state.  If Obama intends to really change the map then she, or Schweitzer, makes sense.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:45:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

she won't take Kansas... (none / 0)

not at this point, at any rate. Still it is a good start!


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:19:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Neither KS or MT will be in play (none / 0)

and there is scant evidence of a candidate being able to carry their home state as VP aginst prevailing political environment.  Edwards failed to carry NC.  Gore failed to carry TN even as Presidential candidate.  If Romney were McSame's VP no way would he carry MA and MI would be a stretch.  


by activatedbybush on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Neither KS or MT will be in play (none / 0)

Obama is already up five in Montana.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why does it matter? (none / 0)

Aren't we trying to be gender-blind in this?  Why is it "couragious" go hire a woman when it's perfectly clear that a woman could go the distance and that people largely don't care about it (as evidenced by the Democratic primary)?

You're welcome to debate the merits of Sebelius in comparison to Clinton, but you should open it up to Richardson, Clark, and all the other potential candidates, too.

The fact that we still consider gender to be an issue in the VP selection does not speak well of us.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:45:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If you don't think that it would be courageous (none / 0)

for the first African American candidate from a major party to select a woman as his running mate then you are being naiive.  We might be trying to be gender-neutral, but the country is certainly not.

That is the political reality whether we like it or not.


by activatedbybush on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This year? (none / 0)

I'm pretty certain that we could nominate a potted plant as VP and our chances of beating the Republicans wouldn't change.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:07:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, this is America (none / 0)

And we elected the village idiot to another 4 years after seeing just how bad the first 4 were.  So let's not make it easier for them.


by activatedbybush on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair point (none / 0)

I acknowledge that we can be pretty dumb on occasion.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:13:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neither superior nor inferior. (none / 0)

Sebelius is a governor - Clinton a Senator.  Sebelius was an early advocate of Barack Obama's - Clinton was his opponent.  Sebelius has an executive type demeanor, Clinton a wonkish one.  And on and on.

People don't treat men this way: "well if you're going to pick Bayh, you may as well pick Clark" because recognizing them as individuals is automatic.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's contextual (none / 0)

As the first major party African American nominee, Obama has to view female candidates (and other minority candidates) differently.  In a perfect world this would not be the case.  But it's political reality.  

The more challenging choice for Obama would be "picking a woman", rather than a specific woman.  There is some risk in him picking a woman.

Among women candidates, Clinton would be a far superior choice to Sebelius.  If they were both men, Clinton would be a far superior choice.   Clinton has higher recognition levels, a proven donor list, foreign policy experience (beyond sniper fire in Tuzla), a signature issue (health care), and demonstrated grit and tenacity.    The fact that she wasn't an early advocate of Obama's will help party unity.  If Obama picks an early loyalist, he further shuts out the half of the party that didn't support him.  If he expands the tent by picking a Clinton supporter (including Clinton herself) or a clear neutral party, he helps the healing process.  As a woman who supported Obama early, Sebelius is especially unattractive and divisive as a choice.   There are a number of other women who backed Clinton or who remained neutral who would be better choices - if Obama had the courage (the audacity?) to go with a woman in the number 2 slot)


by activatedbybush on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

best argument I've heard (none / 0)

as you're right about the "woman" thing. There was an article about it, and you're right about Obama shutting out Hillary voters and supporters by picking a loyalist like Sebelius. Hillary is the only real choice.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Clinton would be a far superior choice. (none / 0)

That POV can be argued much more effectively that the one which says Hillary is the only woman who can be chosen as Obama's VP.


by Beren on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama were to take the courageous (none / 0)

People who keep repeating this are unaware of the hostility that Hillary stirs up in the electorate.  One of many things going well for the Dems in this election s ambivalence among conservatives.  Hillary on the ticket would definitely be a motivator for those presently indifferent voters.


Saxby Chambliss: Asshat
by mikeinsf on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama were to take the courageous (2.00 / 1)

No one's unaware that conservatives don't like the Clintons. I just think this is overrated. When Bill was running in 96, I heard they wouldn't let her speak at the convention because her presence "riles up the base". Hillary spoke and Bill won easily anyway. In 00, i heard how she would ultimately lose the senate race because she "riles up the base." She won anyway and then they could't even find a decent challenger next time. I think the GOP is so disspirited right now that even Hillary hatred, which does exist, won't be near enough to save them.


by Mayor McCheese on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama were to take the courageous (none / 0)

I just think what she adds to the ticket might be canceled out by what she might take away.  A wash.  


Saxby Chambliss: Asshat
by mikeinsf on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama were to take the courageous (none / 0)

I agree with you as far as electibility goes. But after the elections are over he has to work with her for the next 4 years and frankly hiillar is an alpha dog. She doesn't seem like she's ready for second fiddle right now.
Could be wrong but that's the way i see it.
Elections 2008 Best reality show ever!!!
by kbal on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Typo (none / 0)

Only one "i" in Sebelius.


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:57:23 AM EST

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (2.00 / 2)

Saw her stateoftheunion response. Worst presentation I have ever seen. Period. This is a slap in the face to Hillary supporters.


by DaleA on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:14:34 AM EST

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

Explain how.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:38:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What isn't? (none / 0)


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a slap in the face to Hillary supporters. (none / 0)

Somebody needs to slap some sense into some of them.


by Beren on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

funny (none / 0)

but some of those supporters post here. ixnay on teh adhominem.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:55:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny (none / 0)

Who cares what the half dozen of them who post here think?


by Beren on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

2 reasons on why not:

1. any other woman picked besides HRC = backlash

2. sebelius failed her vp audition- see the snoozefest that was her rebuttal to the state of the union address....then think about hrc's stump speeches and debate performances...then tell me again that obama is audacious enough to pick her over HRC.


by darwinism on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:16:49 AM EST

less compromised. (none / 0)

more principled (err... should I say less-statesman like? -- is same thing, diff connotation.)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:20:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

any other woman picked besides HRC = backlash (none / 0)


Who cares what a couple of dozen bitter dead-enders do?
by Beren on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you create a class of embittered people (2.00 / 1)

by picking another woman.  Clinton supporters who would otherwise get onto the bandwagon albeit grudingly might be sufficiently enraged not to.  Not to say that if the clear best candidate for VP was a woman and a woman other than Clinton that Obama shouldn't pick her.

But this diary is about Sibelius who is patently not the best candidate out there.  No foreign policy experience.  No national profile.   Lousy campaign/public presence.  And an early Obama backer who doesn't help bring the party factions together.


by activatedbybush on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

I also think it's sort of unfair, and strange that we hear Feminist Outrage from the PUMAs, but they have ruled out ANY woman BUT Senator Clinton....

I guess I read that as saying Senator Clinton is the ONLY women these folks think is even close to being qualified?  

Probably not how they see it, but it kind of comes off that way.

Still, I think it's sad, but it probably does put a pretty heavy notch against Sebelius, and probably McCaskill as well.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:32:15 AM EST

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (none / 0)

PUMA voters are groupies caught up in a Cult of Personality. They've projected themselves onto a single celebrity-politician and make it all about her, and by extension, all about them.

The issues?  The Party?  The country?  The world?  It's not about any of that at all.


Saxby Chambliss: Asshat
by mikeinsf on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:35:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (2.00 / 1)

Why is a pro-Sibelius diary taken as being anti-Hillary?

The diarist makes a very good case for his candidate. He/she did it in the most respectful mannner so I don't get the paranoid reaction of some commenters. I personally think Hillary is a better choice (my fave is Wes Clark by the way) but this diarist did not slight or insult her. We've got loads of talent on our roster currently and it's nice that all this VP talk has given added exposure to some very worthy Democrats.

Great diary.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:39:14 AM EST

Diariest didn't stick around to correct (none / 0)

the spelling of the governor's name. But there is no pile on saying diarist should check in to a mental institution. Odd.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:50:16 AM EST

Bad spelling and being busy make you insane? (none / 0)

I'm intrigued by your theory and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

In the meantime, shush now.  


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shush now? (none / 0)

WTF?


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

your tinfoil hattery should be (none / 0)

more explicitly labeled, lest you be labeled an element of the kleptocracy.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:56:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

That's what you say to children when they're being loud while the adults are talking.

Start acting maturely, you'll get more respect.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are obviously economically secure (none / 0)

because we never see initiative or desire from you that Obama restore the social compact. You are very fortunate.

But not everybody is so secure. And we were taught to engage in conversation with our leaders and fellow citizens about issues that yes concern us. Sorry this is so upsetting to you, but people do have concerns about volatility of jobs, displacement costs, unexpected health crises driving people into debt, the disappearance of pensions, ageing baby boomers, and Obama's proposal to transform Social Security from a shared benefits program into a welfare program (thereby ripening it for the Cato Institute to dismantle.)

An American idol speaking at a football stadium doesn't strike us as particularly bold unless said idol manages to say something particularly bold. And saying something in a loud soaring cadence still does not count as saying something bold. Words matter.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

How does my economic status relate to you acting like a brat because your (supposed) candidate didn't earn the Democratic nomination for President of the United States?  

It's like you're just randomizing responses in the hopes that one of them will be the last straw that makes just one person jaded about the entire political process and give up entirely.

That Marie Cocco article was decent, but completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, and somewhat tainted by the fact that she's apparently never had anything nice to say about Obama in the first place (she compared him to Bob Dole?).


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

Don't worry much about catfish's post.  Catfish's mission is to undermine the nominee in every diary.


Saxby Chambliss: Asshat
by mikeinsf on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I know (none / 0)

Pointing out the logical inconsistencies is kinda fun, though.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's economic promises (none / 0)

the ones where he carries conviction, are that he'll funnel money to faith-based organizations.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, right. (none / 0)

You're just proving my point about random posting.

None of this makes any sense to the greater discussion.  Not only that, but you're mischaracterizing his faith-based initiatives horribly.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Case For Governor Kathleen Sibelius (2.00 / 1)

The case against Sebelius is, sadly, much shorter.

In her one big chance to make a national speech after the SOTU she bombed miserably.  She is not an engaging speaker and would therefore not be a draw making appearances in place of the nominee.

In this very nasty political year we need an attack dog as VP.  Sebelius does impress me as being tough minded, but not an attack dog.  She may take hard stands and fight for the right issues at the legislative level, but shows no evidence of being able to fight with words and in sound bites, which is how national campaigning works.

If McCain picks Romney as VP, Sebelius's one advantage, being a governor, will be effectively neutralized.

Lastly, the most intense HRC supporters will be insulted if O picks any other woman, even one with as many advantages over Hillary on paper as Sebelius has.

Someone upthread compared it to Hillary picking Harold Ford as her VP if she had won, but that actually would have made perfect sense, since HRC and Ford are cut from the same DLC cloth.

Sorry, it won't be Sebelius.  If O picks her or anyone without solid military credentials I will be extremely surprised.


Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
by TrueBlueMajority on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:59:51 AM EST

Romney? (2.00 / 1)

I don't get how she cedes any advantage to Romney.  Romney left his one term as governor with a 43% approval rating and is widely hated in Massachusetts.  Sebelius won re-election to her second term with 57% of the vote and is well liked in her state.

I don't think she "bombed" her post-SotU speech.  It was boring, but one speech doesn't make or break a candidate... how many awful speeches have we heard from McCain so far?  Wasn't Hillary Clinton's valid point that you don't need to be a fancy talker to be an effective leader?


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill Clinton's 1988 Convention Speech (2.00 / 2)

was the worst political speech in the history of the universe. It was so bad that I decided that I would never vote for Clinton until I realized that the 1992 Democratic field of candidates was awful. Despite Clinton making the worst speech ever, he still won the next presidential election.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton's 1988 Convention Speech (none / 0)

But the point here is that one bad speech can do a lot of damage. It took Clinton years to live this down. We might not have the luxury of waiting for years to recover from a failure during this campaign.


by Mayor McCheese on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton's 1988 Convention Speech (none / 0)

"t took Clinton years to live this down."

And then he became president.

That speech by Sebelius that some are ranting about isn't even a valid consideration.


by Beren on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton's 1988 Convention Speech (none / 0)

correct. Four years later he became president. The point is, Sebelius won't have 4 years to bounce back if she performs poorly and the ticket loses.


by Mayor McCheese on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton's 1988 Convention Speech (none / 0)

It's laughable to think that one speech you didn't like can disqualify Sebelius as a VP candidate, or that she could cause Obama to lose after having won two terms as the Democratic governor of the reddest of states.

Can you think of a substantive reason for disqualifying her?